Hey if the argument is trying something completely different I’m all for it! We’ve relied on “Walsall People” for the best part of this decade and it’s worked once.
I’m just not sure Keith Hill is that difference considering his record at this level and considering his inability to organise a defence, our weakest area.
I am guessing if we apply the above logic that would make Sir Ray a poor manager then.
I … genuinely can not see any connection whatsoever?
Ray Graydon finished 2nd in this league conceding 40 odd goals and 4th conceding 50. Lets ignore for a minute the ridiculous difference in football and budgeting over the past 20 years, how does that bare any resemblance to Keith Hill’s record at this level at all?
Never mind the fact I never said it makes him a poor manager, just not the man to take us forward.
But other than that, great comparison!
Guessing you’re restricting that point to League 2 then considering your previous point below
Other than this season, he’s done a very good job at Rochdale given the resources and I’ve seen you say before that as long as we stay in this division we’re punching above our weight so based off that, how is he ■■■■ in league one when they’re a club similar, if not smaller than us?
He’s not a bad manager … if your aim is to be bottom half league one or get promoted from league two. If that is where you see us LONG TERM he will do that job and you’ll be very happy (although judging by our fans reactions to that exact performance in the past I doubt we would be happy).
And last season. Where they literally cut it finer than we did.
I’ve said that about this season, not forever. We need to stay in this division this season. After that we need to build. It’s the hand that was dealt at the start of the season to Keates and it’s the hand that is still there now. If we stay up and he doesn’t build on that he deserves the sack just like Whitney failed to build on a mid table team. What has Keith Hill ever done to prove he’s the man to do that? What has Keith Hill ever done to prove he’s the man to sort out the weaknesses in our side?
Had 4 strong top half finishes on a budget less than ours? Gone further in the FA cup than we have in god knows how long? Not saying I want him as our manager, just didn’t agree with the fact you said he’s a ■■■■ league one manager
And then turned that team into what we see now and did see last season.
As for the FA Cup it’s only really Whitney that has failed to take us very far in that recently. Keates managed 3rd round this year. Smith managed round 4 and took us to Wembley and earned a tie against Chelsea in the EFL. Surely that’s about all you can expect from a manager? Not sure it’s reason to laud Hill because he’s done better than Jon Whitney in the FA Cup.
It’s probably harsh to say ■■■■ to be fair. But I did revise that to bang average at this level and I 100 percent stand by that.
Bump … back on topic?
We are on topic. Relegation, whether we think it will happen and whether a change of manager will make any difference to the “calculation” 
Pretty sure that it’s been a standing joke as a Walsall fan for the last thirty years or more to ask ‘what’s a cup run?’ Rare as hens teeth. I flew over from NZ for a long weekend to watch us at Wembley because we were one of only a handful of clubs that had never played there.
Not sure what point I’m trying to make, but it’s probably that we are more bang average than any other remotely comparable club, and even most incomparable clubs, thanks to the total lack of ambition of our owner. Bonser sets us apart.
Just out of interest why are you still ignoring the 4 top 10 finishes considering you’ve said he’s a bottom half league one manager at best?
Dean Smith finishes at Walsall:
10/11: 20th
11/12: 19th
12/13: 9th
13/14: 13th (much worse than I thought)
14/15: 14th
15/16: 2nd (up to end of November)
Surely you’d make the same point about Dean then? Even though he’s been given a chance and shown he’s a reasonable manager at championship level?
TBH I normally don’t get involved in these never ending debates and also had to log off for my own sanity as I think two 20 somethings arguing on a message board at close to midnight about Keith Hill isn’t a great stage in life…
Call me bonkers but if the worst happens then Keith Hill would be right at the top of my list to start a comeback from league two just as Money did. His record been pretty mediocre in management since leaving Walsall btw…
The two out of the last three managers got about as far as can be expected though. Anybody can have a cup run. Chase Town have managed it.
Well that I can’t argue with.
Whitney/ S’OD managed round 4, DS left in 15/16 before even round 2.
Rochdale managed to get to FA cup round 4 in four of last six seasons. Walsall made two third rounds in about a decade.
I agree last season their form did fall off a cliff in the league but they did have a great cup run. I remember watching them v Spurs on the Beeb and they were brilliant and fully deserved holding them to a 2-2.
How many people on here would take finishing 20th and getting to FA cup 5th round, holding a premier league team at home and having a replay at Emirates/Anfield/Old Trafford?
I’d say it’s a little better than hoping to finish 20th this season and getting smashed by a Bolton who can’t even open their training ground on a Monday now.
Where have I done that? I’ve acknowledged them directly whenever you have said that and anybody else has regurgitated it. Remember this:
A Couple of mnid table finishes and a complete capitulation more recently. ■■■■■■■ wow. Bring him in!
What?! What are these wacky comaprisons with people like Graydon and Smith people keep throwing out? I genuinely cant work them out. There was clear progression under Smith. What clear progression have Rochdale had in this division?
Richard Money is the perfect simile for Keith Hill. If people want that I’m baffled.
Doesn’t that reaffirm my point even more? I don’t really care who managed it my point was that 2 out of the last 3 managers have and that anybody, including those two clowns, can have a cup run.
Me. I’d take that. Keates could have managed that this season if the draw had been kinder though. Bolton are still a team that you’d expect to beat us 
Because once a time Dean Smith was a promising league one manager like Keith Hill. Certainly didn’t feel on this message board that people felt like it was always progressing with DS.
Certainly I was shocked with how low the finish was in 13/14 considering how the team weren’t far off top 6 going into start of March and Wembley papered over a very mediocre league season in 14/15. Imagine that a cup run affecting league form…
Anyway to me this boils down to a simple question. If the worst happens in two months time (and it remains a very big possibility) you’d turn down a manager who has two promotions from that league ( goals conceded 48 and 48 
) and has built up a club into competitive league one outfit on two seperate occasions?
To me he’s a better pound for pound at this level than Karl Robinson who does have a promotion from this level but also done very mediocre jobs at Charlton and Oxford.
Promising? The blokes been managing for 14 years and has just been sacked from a team below us with, all together now, the worst defence relatively in the country.
They were, quite clearly, talking ■■■■■■■■ then. If you couldn’t see the improvement under Smith, if not in league position but in philosophy, structure, playing style and systems then you were quite frankly wrong.
Well yeah. That’s like arguing a 15 year old Renault Clio is better than a push bike. Yeah it is, but I don’t want one of those either.
It’s like a scab I can’t itch.
Sir Ray got lucky with the team he assembled for us. He was never able to repeat that at any other team, including his beloved Bristol Rovers.