Brexit Breakfast

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swampysaddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:30 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:
Exile wrote:
swampysaddler wrote:Just listen to what is said around the minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRowLjb0x48


You voted leave, you want to leave. Why? What's the benefit to you? What improvements will leaving the EU bring to you as an individual and to the country as a whole?


Good questions, Exile.

I'd love to hear the answers from Swampster or indeed any other Brexiteer.


So we have now left the beaten track of "we want another referendum because we lost" to "why did you vote the way you did ?"
I voted leave for many reasons, all my own reasons, but the main reason is because I was using my democratic right to have a say on something that effected me. Same as you that voted remain used your democratic right to voice your opinion.
As for Farage and what he was preaching yesterday I don't agree with him.
As I have said in the past he and UKIP have served their purpose, we are leaving.
Why the media even give him air space, the same for that hideous woman Gina Miller (who is now an expert on the NHS if last nights Question Time is anything to go by), is beyond me.

El_Nombre
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:14 pm

swampysaddler wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:
Exile wrote:
swampysaddler wrote:Just listen to what is said around the minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRowLjb0x48


You voted leave, you want to leave. Why? What's the benefit to you? What improvements will leaving the EU bring to you as an individual and to the country as a whole?


Good questions, Exile.

I'd love to hear the answers from Swampster or indeed any other Brexiteer.


So we have now left the beaten track of "we want another referendum because we lost" to "why did you vote the way you did ?"
I voted leave for many reasons, all my own reasons, but the main reason is because I was using my democratic right to have a say on something that effected me. Same as you that voted remain used your democratic right to voice your opinion.
As for Farage and what he was preaching yesterday I don't agree with him.
As I have said in the past he and UKIP have served their purpose, we are leaving.
Why the media even give him air space, the same for that hideous woman Gina Miller (who is now an expert on the NHS if last nights Question Time is anything to go by), is beyond me.



Well yeah? Obviously? That's what everybody did. I didn't think you'd voted for the bloke down the streets reasons.

He didn't ask you why you voted, he asked you why you voted the way you did.
Last edited by El_Nombre on Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:14 pm

Come on then, Swampy lad - don't stop there.

What were your many reasons for voting leave?

I've told you most of mine.

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SaigonSaddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:38 pm

swampysaddler wrote:So we have now left the beaten track of "we want another referendum because we lost" to "why did you vote the way you did ?"
I voted leave for many reasons, all my own reasons, but the main reason is because I was using my democratic right to have a say on something that effected me. .


Yeah! He voted leave for reasons. Many reasons. And he has all the best reasons. :wink:

Hope that's clear!

PS - June.

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shrewsbury saddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:48 pm

You're perfectly entitled to vote according to just your own, private reasons, and you have a right to keep them private.But it makes coming on a public forum to defend that vote just a little bit short of fully comprehensible.

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PINNACLE
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:55 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:Come on then, Swampy lad - don't stop there.

What were your many reasons for voting leave?

I've told you most of mine.



10 Reasons to Leave the EU23RD SEPTEMBER 2017NICK HUBBLE

This article is an update on a pre-referendum article from Dominic Frisby. To read the original, click here.

The EU referendum has come and gone, and Article 50 has been triggered.

But Brexit is far from over.

Some still don’t accept the will of the people. There’s talk of transition periods and flailing negotiations. The economic cataclysm they said would come if we voted for Brexit will now supposedly come when we actually get it… if we ever do.

We must continue to push politicians if we’re to get the Brexit we voted for.


And so I’m going to summarise my views into ten digestible bullet points as a reminder for why Brexit was the right decision.

But first, something needs clearing up…

I love Europe, but I want to leave the EU
It’s obvious. But based on some of the things I’m hearing and reading, it needs saying again.

Voting to leave the European Union (EU) was not a democratic election, an expression of hatred for Europe or Europeans, nor a matter of racism, bigotry or anything else like that.

It was simply a vote on whether we should remain part of the administrative body that is the EU.

If we had voted to leave NATO or the World Bank, we wouldn’t be leaving the North Atlantic or the world behind. We’d just be escaping those organisations’ administrative powers. We wouldn’t be disbanding the armed forces or leaving millions to die. Just deciding for ourselves how to use our resources to solve those problems. It’s a question of how to make the best decisions.

Brexit does not mean you will no longer be able to travel to France. It does not mean your continental friends will not be able to come to the UK. And it doesn’t mean we will no longer be able to trade with our European brothers and sisters. Unless the EU does something stupid.

I should say that I’m German, British and Australian. I’ve lived in five European countries for half my life. I’m as much a Europhile as a Brit or an outsider. I wouldn’t know which country to be patriotic for and I believe strongly in internationalism – things like trade and migration.

And I still want out of the EU. Here are ten reasons why Britain should continue the drive to leave:

1. Centralised power is the wrong way to go
People thrive most in societies in which power is distributed as thinly and widely as possible. In such environments they are happier, healthier, wealthier, freer, and they achieve more.

The EU, by design, centralises power in Brussels and makes laws uniform. This while we are moving into an age of decentralisation and localisation. Just have a look at what’s going on with bitcoin, Ethereum and other cryptocurrencies, Uber and internet commerce, and how we get our goods, news and information.

The EU is the wrong model for our times.

2. Fringe nations perform better
Since the inception of the EU in 1993, the economies of Norway, Switzerland and Iceland (even with its financial crisis) – the fringe nations – have on a per capita basis dramatically outperformed their neighbouring EU economies. They show that it is possible to become important EU trading partners without losing sovereignty to the EU.

For instance, Norway and other members of the European Economic Area (EEA) follow most of the rules of the single market, and must accept free movement of EU workers, but are allowed to keep parts of their economies excluded from the EEA, like farming or fisheries.

The Swiss are only partially beholden to EU law, as they have a special static deal that enables some sectors to operate outside of EU regulations. Their banking sector is the living proof of that.

In both cases these countries have to pay the EU for access, but far less than we already do. More importantly, given the EU’s restrictive trade practices with other nations, they’re free to establish trade deals with other countries, as the Swiss have done with China.

And don’t forget that Switzerland’s population is around eight million, and Norway’s five million. With 65 million citizens and a much larger economy, Britain is in a much stronger position to negotiate a proper deal that reflects our size.


Under Brexit, we would be a fringe nation and that would suit us.

3. Regulation should be local
Around 65% of regulation is now set in Brussels. It is of a one-size-fits-all variety, and so often inappropriate to local circumstances. Rather than facilitate progress, regulation hinders it.

Once in place, regulation is hard to change. Rather than get cut, it is added to. We already have too much in our lives. What we need would be much better set locally, according to local needs and circumstances.

Not to mention, all those regulations cost money to apply. A lot of money. Since the financial crisis of 2008-2009, Britain’s contribution to the EU budget has skyrocketed while our receipts remained steady.



4. The economic disaster that is southern Europe
At the time of the referendum, we had 39% youth unemployment in Italy, 45% in Spain and 49% in Greece. Even while Europe’s economy is firing, its unemployment rate remains extraordinarily high compared to other nations with similar economies and growth.

Southern Europe is suffering terribly under the EU. Countries are unable to do the things they need to do to kickstart their economies because decisions are being taken on their behalf, not locally, but in Brussels, for the benefit of too broad a group of nations and people.

As if structural unemployment weren’t enough, the financial sector of the infamously named PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain) isn’t any better. We’ve seen Spanish Banco Popular being sold for the token price of €1 to Santander, and Greece is still on the verge of having to sell some islands in order to get its national budget approved by the Troika apparatchiks.

But a bigger disaster is brewing within Italy. It’s called the “Sofferenza” – the suffering. These are borrowers who simply can’t repay, but the bank just leaves them in limbo. An Italian banking crisis could start a collapse of the euro and potentially the downfall of the European Union.

I could not support with my vote an organisation that has inflicted such misery on some of its people. Reform of a bureaucratic organisation like that from within is an impossible undertaking. We need to escape.

5. Immigration policy is becoming ever more important
We hope to turn the Brexit movement into something that supports immigration of workers equally from all nations based on merit, not political alliances.

The reality is that there are more and more people in the world and – whether it’s those displaced by wars, by lack of water, by poverty, hunger or lack of opportunity – more and more of them are on the move. We are in a migration of people of historic proportions.


The UK, inside the EU, will struggle with its current immigration levels for a sustained period. We don’t have the infrastructure.

I wonder how we get those numbers down. I’m not sure we can, either in or out of the EU. It is a tide in the affairs of men. But we are in a better position to do it with total control of our own borders and border policy if we leave the EU.

6. Trade deals are a red herring
As a percentage share, British trade with the EU has fallen by almost 20% since 1999. British trade with the US, on the other hand, has grown. We have no official trade deal with the US.

Here’s a chart of exports for your consideration.

Chart showing Britain's trade partners from EU or Non EU
The point here is that trade policy is only part of the equation. There is no point having a common market if the economies of the countries you’re in that market with are struggling.

Some Remainers fail to notice that the EU is not just a free-trade area, but a customs union. It doesn’t just eliminate trade barriers[AV1] , it creates a common tariff for all its members that impedes free trade with the rest of the world. And that barrier is set at a high level. If we can escape it, trade with the rest of the world would flourish.

Bear in mind that Britain is one of the two members of the EU which trades most with the rest of the world rather than inside the EU. And, were we to leave, we’d become its biggest exports market.

A Britain free to focus elsewhere with its own initiatives is likely to do better on trade than a Britain in the EU.

7. Further integration with the EU means economic decline
When Britain joined the Common Market in 1973, the EU (as it is now) produced 38% of the world’s goods and services – 38% of global GDP.

In 1993, when the EU formally began, it produced just under 25%. Today the EU produces just 17%.

The obvious explanation for this is the rise of the Asian economies, which have taken on a bigger share of global GDP. But why then has the US’s share not fallen by as much?

The US’s share of global GDP stood at 30% in 1973, 27% in 1993, and stands at 22% today. That’s a 55% drop for the EU versus a 27% drop for the US.

Because of the shared currency and monetary policy inside the eurozone, there is a divergence in prosperity. The subjugation of peripheral economies to a strong euro has turned upside down the trade deficits across Europe. The German economy is the “motor of the EU” under a euro that is too weak, while others struggle under a euro that is too high for them. The same for monetary policy.

The EU has disappointed its people economically in all sorts of ways. We should run away in order to prosper, just as we escaped the euro’s one-size-fits-all exchange rate and monetary policy.

8. Democratic accountability matters
One of the biggest arguments for leaving the EU is that it is not a democratically accountable body. I didn’t vote for the administrators and nor did you. I don’t know who most of them are. If we want to vote them out, what do we do? We can’t do anything.

And if you want some idea as to the esteem in which they hold the democratic process, how about this from the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Junker: “Prime ministers must stop listening so much to their voters and instead act as ‘full time Europeans’”. Or how about another one his remarks: “When it gets serious, you have to lie”.

Just what you want in a president. Do you remember voting for him? I certainly don’t. But he’s still your president, and he’s not the only one. Currently, the EU has five presidents! None of them were elected by you or me. What kind of “democratic union” are we in?

9. Land ownership and the Common Agricultural Policy
There is no greater manifestation of the wealth divide in the UK than who owns land and who doesn’t: 70% of land in the UK is owned by fewer than 6,000 people. Yet these people are not paying tax on the land they own, they are receiving subsidies for it instead. Landowners are being paid by the EU to own land.

Of the EU budget, 40% goes to agricultural policy. This has created vast amounts of waste. It has propped up inefficient businesses that have failed to modernise. It has re-enforced monopolies which should be broken up.

Worst of all, it has meant that African farmers have been unable to compete, depriving millions of a livelihood (not to mention cheaper food for the rest of us).

More and more voices are rising against land concentration across the EU, especially in eastern Europe. A phenomenon called “farmland grabbing” is extensively described in a report of the Transnational Institute: “Extent of Farmland Grabbing in the EU”. This report exposes how lobbyism and growing monopolisation is killing European farming, which has lost around three million farms in the 2008-2015 period alone.

I cannot endorse with my vote an organisation that does all this and shows zero inclination to change its ways.

10. The Common Fisheries Policy
We had to cede ownership of our waters to gain EU membership. What was once a huge industry and the largest fishing fleet in Europe has all but disappeared.

The French, Italians, Spanish and Greeks had fished out the Mediterranean. They were given access to our waters and our quota was reduced to 13% of the common resource. It’s not like we got ownership of Mediterranean olive groves in return.

The quotas system brought about the dreadful practice of discards (putting dead fish back in the sea), and reformed EU regulation now means that rather than being put back in the water, it is brought back for landfill instead.

Let’s have our waters back with Brexit.

Don’t avert your eyes
I don’t think it takes a genius to work out I supported Brexit. It was quite the occasion.

I believe, if we manage to leave, we will experience an economic boom that will take everybody’s breath away. We will look back and wonder why we were even discussing it.

If you think this article might persuade anyone still doubting Brexit, please share it with them.

Nick Hubble
Capital & Conflict

Copied and pasted but perfectly suits my mood !
There's an answer for you so please just shut the f*** up and get over it :roll:

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SaigonSaddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:30 pm

PINNACLE wrote:Copied and pasted but perfectly suits my mood !
There's an answer for you so please just shut the f*** up and get over it :roll:


Too long / not read.

Copy and paste from a lazy poster. Couldn't even be bothered to summarise into vaguely digestible format.

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PINNACLE
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:09 pm

SaigonSaddler wrote:
PINNACLE wrote:Copied and pasted but perfectly suits my mood !
There's an answer for you so please just shut the f*** up and get over it :roll:


Too long / not read.

Copy and paste from a lazy poster. Couldn't even be bothered to summarise into vaguely digestible format.


You have got as long as it takes to read it, no one is hurrying you !
There are some very good arguments against your so called promised land.
I made it quite clear that i had lifted it from another source so please do not call me a lazy poster or are we back to childish insults when someone dares to answer you back. Typical remark i would have expected from one of the 3 UTS bullies that have killed this once very enjoyable website.

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chunkster
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:23 pm

I do hope Manchester takes the time to read it, it might shut him up :mrgreen:

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SaigonSaddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:24 pm

PINNACLE wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:
PINNACLE wrote:Copied and pasted but perfectly suits my mood !
There's an answer for you so please just shut the f*** up and get over it :roll:


Too long / not read.

Copy and paste from a lazy poster. Couldn't even be bothered to summarise into vaguely digestible format.


You have got as long as it takes to read it, no one is hurrying you !
There are some very good arguments against your so called promised land.
I made it quite clear that i had lifted it from another source so please do not call me a lazy poster or are we back to childish insults when someone dares to answer you back. Typical remark i would have expected from one of the 3 UTS bullies that have killed this once very enjoyable website.


LOL

Harking back to the halcyon days of the various UTS cliques? :wink:

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:30 pm

I skim read it - and I (kind of) applaud Pinnacle for actually posting it.

I will read it properly tomorrow (I've had a beer or two so am less able to digest the contents fully).

My initial thoughts:

(1) Centralised power - "The EU, by design, centralises power in Brussels and makes laws uniform. " - not true. The UK make their own laws. This is a common flaw in the argument of Brexiteers. What the EU do is try to standardise economic policy - for example "the shape of bananas" - the argument that most Brexiteers use to indicate the madness of the EU. Don't forget - our elected MEPs have a say in this - so if you voted for Nigel Farage -presumably he voted against it!

(2) Fringe Nations Perform Better - I've worked in Switzerland and they pride themselves about staying "neutral in World War 2" - but what I do know is that nowadays they allow freedom of movement of EU citizens. I can come and go as I please. And I have a very good mate who has lived there since the late 1980's! If we were to go with the no deal "Hard Brexit" then we wouldn't enjoy the benefits that the Swiss or the Norwegians enjoy. People like Farage would not want us to be like the Swiss or the Norwegians.

(3) Regulations should be local - well yes - they should! BUT surely as part of the EU and with the power of veto we could and should vote against regulations that we don't like. Sadly governments (both sides) have clearly thought that the regulations fit in the past. We voted for the geovernments ergo we voted for those regulations - oh - and the MEPs too!

(4) The economic disaster that is Southern Europe - where we all go for our holidays! Yes - they were kind of bailed out but who by? Not us, that's for sure. Whether that's a a good thing or bad thing, I'm not sure. But, closer to home, what about the economic disaster that is the North of England compared to the prosperous south? Brexiteers constantly whine about the south being the Remainer stronghold (not true). Shoud we have a referendum to break Northern England away from London?

(5) Immigration Policy is becoming more important - Really immigration is the main issue as far as I can tell talking to Brexiteers, In the original thread I suggested that Brexiteers are a little bit xenophobicm because in their perception EU nationals were "stealing our jobs". This is clearly a tribal thing and panders to the racist elements of the United Kingdom. But is this really true? Are we xenophobic? I think a lot of Brexiteers are (NOT ALL I hasten to add!!!). I know my own Mother-in-law is a total racist and it was no surprise to me where her vote went. Let me tell you where I am coming from. I love to travel and have been to almost 30 countries - and fully intend to increase that amount! The freedom of movement thing works both ways and, to me at least, exposes the blinkered viewpoint of some Brexiteers. I want to embrace Europe and actually go and live there. Yet I have seen ex-pats who regard themselves as "not foreigners" in Spain yet voted for Brexit because they thought that "foreigners" should not live in England. It is beyond belief! Yes - we will be able to go back to the EU but fundamentally ALL OF US have lost our rights as EU citizens! That is in my opinion one of the saddest tings about Brexit. We have cut off our noses to spite our faces.

(6) Trade deals are a red herring - Really? We already have a trade deal with China and many other non-EU countries. Trade with China has increased while we are in the EU and (bizarrely) as an arrangement it is far easier for Chinese people to come to the UK than it was. How's THAT for freedom of movement? I know because I the last time I went to China was 18 months ago yet I am still eligible to go there until May - a two year visa! I've been to China a lot and this is the longest visa I have ever had. Also, the "no deal" scenario means that we will face tariffs! Big tariffs! The EU is the BIGGEST MARKET in the world.

And we are pulling out like total dickheads!!!

(7) "Further integration with the EU means economic decline" - So why is EU growth strong and rising and UK growth weak and declining (since we voted Brexit)?

(8) Democratic accountability matters - We voted for MEPs. The EU commission is like the civil service. I don't recall having a say in who each civil servant was. And MOST IMPORTANTLY - who the fork voted for ANY MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS?????

(9) Land ownership and the Common Agricultural Policy - Did anyone read Michael Gove's recent suggestion about farming subsidies????????

(10) The Common Fisheries Policy - We are rather narrow-minded when it comes to fishing. As part of the EU we have access to the entire EU coast. After Brexit we have to make do with our own seas. Go figure!!!!

I really appreaciate this, Pinnacle but I guess ultimately your goal was to try and shut me up!

You failed and when I have digested it properly tomorrow and replied in a more coherent way, you may regret it. Ultimately this is a view from one Brexiteer who (surprise surprise) hasn't changed my mind.

Some food for thought.

Here are 10 reasons why we should stay!

(1) Immigration is good! What would (will) the NHS be without EU doctors and nurses?

(2) Jobs - The EU offers a huge opportunity for jobs. People can move to and work anywhere in the EU. That will be far more difficult after Brexit.

(3) Trade - We have never had it so good. Goods are cheap and we are part of a wonderful market. When we leave we will no longer be part of that market. Life will be far more expensive and the choice of goods will be limited for people on limited budgets.

(4) Economy - The EU is growing at a fantastic rate. We are growing at a much worse rate and after Brexit we will be plummet. Most economists believe this.

(5) Freedom of movement - wave bye bye to the opportunities to work in and live in the EU. Not so bad for old gits like you and I, Pinnacle - but think of your kids!!

(6) Workers Rights - The Working Time Directive is a Godsend. Now this gives corporations the same power to sack people for nothing - like they do in America! 51st state anyone?

(7) Security - We work closely with the EU to avert terrorist attacks! We will lose a major portion of this intelligence!

(8) European holidays - How difficult will it be for a Brit to open a bar in Spain after we leave the EU? How much more expensive will your trips to Benidorm be, Pinnacle? Still - you can always shiver on the beach in Blackpool!

(9) The Whole World - the whole world thinks we are crazy for voting Brexit. Even crazier than the US electing Trump as their President. Speaks volumes!

(10) EU Funding - Many aspects of British life depend on EU funding! We will lose all of that! It will hit us harder than you think!

Okay - a mega post - but at least I hhave answered all of the poits of the "expert".

Pity, Pinnacle, that you can;'t think of anything yourself!

I may return tomorrow when I can digest this properly!

But in the meantime - if you want to reply to my pro-EU points (without relying on somebody else to think for you) feel free!

:D

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:31 pm

chunkster wrote:I do hope Manchester takes the time to read it, it might shut him up :mrgreen:


Dream on!

:D :wink:

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:35 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:
chunkster wrote:I do hope Manchester takes the time to read it, it might shut him up :mrgreen:


Dream on!

:D :wink:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:
Last edited by chunkster on Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:36 pm

chunkster wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:
chunkster wrote:I do hope Manchester takes the time to read it, it might shut him up :mrgreen:


Dream on!

:D :wink:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink:


:D

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:38 pm

PINNACLE wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Come on then, Swampy lad - don't stop there.

What were your many reasons for voting leave?

I've told you most of mine.



10 Reasons to Leave the EU23RD SEPTEMBER 2017NICK HUBBLE

This article is an update on a pre-referendum article from Dominic Frisby. To read the original, click here.

The EU referendum has come and gone, and Article 50 has been triggered.

But Brexit is far from over.

Some still don’t accept the will of the people. There’s talk of transition periods and flailing negotiations. The economic cataclysm they said would come if we voted for Brexit will now supposedly come when we actually get it… if we ever do.

We must continue to push politicians if we’re to get the Brexit we voted for.


And so I’m going to summarise my views into ten digestible bullet points as a reminder for why Brexit was the right decision.

But first, something needs clearing up…

I love Europe, but I want to leave the EU
It’s obvious. But based on some of the things I’m hearing and reading, it needs saying again.

Voting to leave the European Union (EU) was not a democratic election, an expression of hatred for Europe or Europeans, nor a matter of racism, bigotry or anything else like that.

It was simply a vote on whether we should remain part of the administrative body that is the EU.

If we had voted to leave NATO or the World Bank, we wouldn’t be leaving the North Atlantic or the world behind. We’d just be escaping those organisations’ administrative powers. We wouldn’t be disbanding the armed forces or leaving millions to die. Just deciding for ourselves how to use our resources to solve those problems. It’s a question of how to make the best decisions.

Brexit does not mean you will no longer be able to travel to France. It does not mean your continental friends will not be able to come to the UK. And it doesn’t mean we will no longer be able to trade with our European brothers and sisters. Unless the EU does something stupid.

I should say that I’m German, British and Australian. I’ve lived in five European countries for half my life. I’m as much a Europhile as a Brit or an outsider. I wouldn’t know which country to be patriotic for and I believe strongly in internationalism – things like trade and migration.

And I still want out of the EU. Here are ten reasons why Britain should continue the drive to leave:

1. Centralised power is the wrong way to go
People thrive most in societies in which power is distributed as thinly and widely as possible. In such environments they are happier, healthier, wealthier, freer, and they achieve more.

The EU, by design, centralises power in Brussels and makes laws uniform. This while we are moving into an age of decentralisation and localisation. Just have a look at what’s going on with bitcoin, Ethereum and other cryptocurrencies, Uber and internet commerce, and how we get our goods, news and information.

The EU is the wrong model for our times.

2. Fringe nations perform better
Since the inception of the EU in 1993, the economies of Norway, Switzerland and Iceland (even with its financial crisis) – the fringe nations – have on a per capita basis dramatically outperformed their neighbouring EU economies. They show that it is possible to become important EU trading partners without losing sovereignty to the EU.

For instance, Norway and other members of the European Economic Area (EEA) follow most of the rules of the single market, and must accept free movement of EU workers, but are allowed to keep parts of their economies excluded from the EEA, like farming or fisheries.

The Swiss are only partially beholden to EU law, as they have a special static deal that enables some sectors to operate outside of EU regulations. Their banking sector is the living proof of that.

In both cases these countries have to pay the EU for access, but far less than we already do. More importantly, given the EU’s restrictive trade practices with other nations, they’re free to establish trade deals with other countries, as the Swiss have done with China.

And don’t forget that Switzerland’s population is around eight million, and Norway’s five million. With 65 million citizens and a much larger economy, Britain is in a much stronger position to negotiate a proper deal that reflects our size.


Under Brexit, we would be a fringe nation and that would suit us.

3. Regulation should be local
Around 65% of regulation is now set in Brussels. It is of a one-size-fits-all variety, and so often inappropriate to local circumstances. Rather than facilitate progress, regulation hinders it.

Once in place, regulation is hard to change. Rather than get cut, it is added to. We already have too much in our lives. What we need would be much better set locally, according to local needs and circumstances.

Not to mention, all those regulations cost money to apply. A lot of money. Since the financial crisis of 2008-2009, Britain’s contribution to the EU budget has skyrocketed while our receipts remained steady.



4. The economic disaster that is southern Europe
At the time of the referendum, we had 39% youth unemployment in Italy, 45% in Spain and 49% in Greece. Even while Europe’s economy is firing, its unemployment rate remains extraordinarily high compared to other nations with similar economies and growth.

Southern Europe is suffering terribly under the EU. Countries are unable to do the things they need to do to kickstart their economies because decisions are being taken on their behalf, not locally, but in Brussels, for the benefit of too broad a group of nations and people.

As if structural unemployment weren’t enough, the financial sector of the infamously named PIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain) isn’t any better. We’ve seen Spanish Banco Popular being sold for the token price of €1 to Santander, and Greece is still on the verge of having to sell some islands in order to get its national budget approved by the Troika apparatchiks.

But a bigger disaster is brewing within Italy. It’s called the “Sofferenza” – the suffering. These are borrowers who simply can’t repay, but the bank just leaves them in limbo. An Italian banking crisis could start a collapse of the euro and potentially the downfall of the European Union.

I could not support with my vote an organisation that has inflicted such misery on some of its people. Reform of a bureaucratic organisation like that from within is an impossible undertaking. We need to escape.

5. Immigration policy is becoming ever more important
We hope to turn the Brexit movement into something that supports immigration of workers equally from all nations based on merit, not political alliances.

The reality is that there are more and more people in the world and – whether it’s those displaced by wars, by lack of water, by poverty, hunger or lack of opportunity – more and more of them are on the move. We are in a migration of people of historic proportions.


The UK, inside the EU, will struggle with its current immigration levels for a sustained period. We don’t have the infrastructure.

I wonder how we get those numbers down. I’m not sure we can, either in or out of the EU. It is a tide in the affairs of men. But we are in a better position to do it with total control of our own borders and border policy if we leave the EU.

6. Trade deals are a red herring
As a percentage share, British trade with the EU has fallen by almost 20% since 1999. British trade with the US, on the other hand, has grown. We have no official trade deal with the US.

Here’s a chart of exports for your consideration.

Chart showing Britain's trade partners from EU or Non EU
The point here is that trade policy is only part of the equation. There is no point having a common market if the economies of the countries you’re in that market with are struggling.

Some Remainers fail to notice that the EU is not just a free-trade area, but a customs union. It doesn’t just eliminate trade barriers[AV1] , it creates a common tariff for all its members that impedes free trade with the rest of the world. And that barrier is set at a high level. If we can escape it, trade with the rest of the world would flourish.

Bear in mind that Britain is one of the two members of the EU which trades most with the rest of the world rather than inside the EU. And, were we to leave, we’d become its biggest exports market.

A Britain free to focus elsewhere with its own initiatives is likely to do better on trade than a Britain in the EU.

7. Further integration with the EU means economic decline
When Britain joined the Common Market in 1973, the EU (as it is now) produced 38% of the world’s goods and services – 38% of global GDP.

In 1993, when the EU formally began, it produced just under 25%. Today the EU produces just 17%.

The obvious explanation for this is the rise of the Asian economies, which have taken on a bigger share of global GDP. But why then has the US’s share not fallen by as much?

The US’s share of global GDP stood at 30% in 1973, 27% in 1993, and stands at 22% today. That’s a 55% drop for the EU versus a 27% drop for the US.

Because of the shared currency and monetary policy inside the eurozone, there is a divergence in prosperity. The subjugation of peripheral economies to a strong euro has turned upside down the trade deficits across Europe. The German economy is the “motor of the EU” under a euro that is too weak, while others struggle under a euro that is too high for them. The same for monetary policy.

The EU has disappointed its people economically in all sorts of ways. We should run away in order to prosper, just as we escaped the euro’s one-size-fits-all exchange rate and monetary policy.

8. Democratic accountability matters
One of the biggest arguments for leaving the EU is that it is not a democratically accountable body. I didn’t vote for the administrators and nor did you. I don’t know who most of them are. If we want to vote them out, what do we do? We can’t do anything.

And if you want some idea as to the esteem in which they hold the democratic process, how about this from the president of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Junker: “Prime ministers must stop listening so much to their voters and instead act as ‘full time Europeans’”. Or how about another one his remarks: “When it gets serious, you have to lie”.

Just what you want in a president. Do you remember voting for him? I certainly don’t. But he’s still your president, and he’s not the only one. Currently, the EU has five presidents! None of them were elected by you or me. What kind of “democratic union” are we in?

9. Land ownership and the Common Agricultural Policy
There is no greater manifestation of the wealth divide in the UK than who owns land and who doesn’t: 70% of land in the UK is owned by fewer than 6,000 people. Yet these people are not paying tax on the land they own, they are receiving subsidies for it instead. Landowners are being paid by the EU to own land.

Of the EU budget, 40% goes to agricultural policy. This has created vast amounts of waste. It has propped up inefficient businesses that have failed to modernise. It has re-enforced monopolies which should be broken up.

Worst of all, it has meant that African farmers have been unable to compete, depriving millions of a livelihood (not to mention cheaper food for the rest of us).

More and more voices are rising against land concentration across the EU, especially in eastern Europe. A phenomenon called “farmland grabbing” is extensively described in a report of the Transnational Institute: “Extent of Farmland Grabbing in the EU”. This report exposes how lobbyism and growing monopolisation is killing European farming, which has lost around three million farms in the 2008-2015 period alone.

I cannot endorse with my vote an organisation that does all this and shows zero inclination to change its ways.

10. The Common Fisheries Policy
We had to cede ownership of our waters to gain EU membership. What was once a huge industry and the largest fishing fleet in Europe has all but disappeared.

The French, Italians, Spanish and Greeks had fished out the Mediterranean. They were given access to our waters and our quota was reduced to 13% of the common resource. It’s not like we got ownership of Mediterranean olive groves in return.

The quotas system brought about the dreadful practice of discards (putting dead fish back in the sea), and reformed EU regulation now means that rather than being put back in the water, it is brought back for landfill instead.

Let’s have our waters back with Brexit.

Don’t avert your eyes
I don’t think it takes a genius to work out I supported Brexit. It was quite the occasion.

I believe, if we manage to leave, we will experience an economic boom that will take everybody’s breath away. We will look back and wonder why we were even discussing it.

If you think this article might persuade anyone still doubting Brexit, please share it with them.

Nick Hubble
Capital & Conflict

Copied and pasted but perfectly suits my mood !
There's an answer for you so please just shut the f*** up and get over it :roll:


Wow..
I think that makes it 15 - 30 on Mancs serve, let's see if he can save the game!

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:44 pm

Don't you mean "Game Set and Match to Manchester Saddler?"

:D

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PINNACLE
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:59 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:Don't you mean "Game Set and Match to Manchester Saddler?"

:D


As in your own words............just answer me !
I have given you (by someone far more knowledgeable than me) 10 reasons why Brexit is the right choice. You have been harping on for months about nobody giving you any plausible reasons for us to stay so what do you think about the reasons stated ?
Your mate couldn't be bothered to read it, just went into insult meltdown mode so his opinion is worthless at the moment.
You have an answer by someone who is by the very nature a true European and able to look at this situation from various angles, so what would be your comments on how it would be better for all parties that we stayed in ?
Ignore me and let your answer be as though you were talking directly to him. You have been waiting for this opportunity for several months now and i for one will sit back and read the words of one who thinks he is clever and knows it all, against the words who has done it and lived it !
Advantage Pinnacle :lol:

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:08 pm

PINNACLE wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Don't you mean "Game Set and Match to Manchester Saddler?"

:D


As in your own words............just answer me !
I have given you (by someone far more knowledgeable than me) 10 reasons why Brexit is the right choice. You have been harping on for months about nobody giving you any plausible reasons for us to stay so what do you think about the reasons stated ?
Your mate couldn't be bothered to read it, just went into insult meltdown mode so his opinion is worthless at the moment.
You have an answer by someone who is by the very nature a true European and able to look at this situation from various angles, so what would be your comments on how it would be better for all parties that we stayed in ?
Ignore me and let your answer be as though you were talking directly to him. You have been waiting for this opportunity for several months now and i for one will sit back and read the words of one who thinks he is clever and knows it all, against the words who has done it and lived it !
Advantage Pinnacle :lol:
Over to you manc :mrgreen:

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:13 pm

PS.......Never been to Benidorm in my life and have no desire to do so. Then again it might be even cheaper in the future when they are crying out for real money to bolster there starved EU economy !

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chunkster
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:17 pm

PINNACLE wrote:PS.......Never been to Benidorm in my life and have no desire to do so. Then again it might be even cheaper in the future when they are crying out for real money to bolster there starved EU economy !
i went to benidorm a few years ago, and i never met a spaniard :wink:

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:17 pm

PINNACLE wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Don't you mean "Game Set and Match to Manchester Saddler?"

:D


As in your own words............just answer me !
I have given you (by someone far more knowledgeable than me) 10 reasons why Brexit is the right choice. You have been harping on for months about nobody giving you any plausible reasons for us to stay so what do you think about the reasons stated ?
Your mate couldn't be bothered to read it, just went into insult meltdown mode so his opinion is worthless at the moment.
You have an answer by someone who is by the very nature a true European and able to look at this situation from various angles, so what would be your comments on how it would be better for all parties that we stayed in ?
Ignore me and let your answer be as though you were talking directly to him. You have been waiting for this opportunity for several months now and i for one will sit back and read the words of one who thinks he is clever and knows it all, against the words who has done it and lived it !
Advantage Pinnacle :lol:


I'm sorry Pinnacle but you clearly didn't read my reply ( I don't think you ever do to be honest!). Let me analyse this post and show you up!!

"As in your own words............just answer me !" - You didn't actually ask me a question. All you did was post something from a random Brexiteer and say (and I quote) "Copied and pasted but perfectly suits my mood !
There's an answer for you so please just shut the f*** up and get over it :roll:"

That is not a question. That is your attempt to stop me posting. I replied with a post that was MY OWN WORDS and MY OWN OPINION and basically argued every single point of your "expert".

"I have given you (by someone far more knowledgeable than me) 10 reasons why Brexit is the right choice." - Someone "far more knowledgaeable than me" says it all really. It proves that your knowledge is (let's be nice here) not good enough for the subject at hand. I have challenged his viewpoint. I don't know who he is but I think he is fundamentally wrongg. So I have answered it and given my reasons why. I am willing to bet good money that you didn't even read his post!

"You have been harping on for months about nobody giving you any plausible reasons for us to stay so what do you think about the reasons stated ?" - Did you actually rad my lengthy response? :?

"Your mate couldn't be bothered to read it, just went into insult meltdown mode so his opinion is worthless at the moment." - Saigon will almost certainly give his own response - and it will be his own opinions. I do wish you would give me yours!

"You have an answer by someone who is by the very nature a true European and able to look at this situation from various angles, so what would be your comments on how it would be better for all parties that we stayed in ?" - Did you actually read my lengthy reply!!! Are you capable of actually reading???????

"Ignore me and let your answer be as though you were talking directly to him. You have been waiting for this opportunity for several months now and i for one will sit back and read the words of one who thinks he is clever and knows it all, against the words who has done it and lived it !"

DID YOU ACTUALLY READ MY REPLY????

A word of advice, Pinnacle - read posts!!!!

:roll:

Now then!

What are your replies to my reasons for staying in? And not the words of a random person more knowledgeable!

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:19 pm

chunkster wrote:
PINNACLE wrote:
Manchester Saddler wrote:Don't you mean "Game Set and Match to Manchester Saddler?"

:D


As in your own words............just answer me !
I have given you (by someone far more knowledgeable than me) 10 reasons why Brexit is the right choice. You have been harping on for months about nobody giving you any plausible reasons for us to stay so what do you think about the reasons stated ?
Your mate couldn't be bothered to read it, just went into insult meltdown mode so his opinion is worthless at the moment.
You have an answer by someone who is by the very nature a true European and able to look at this situation from various angles, so what would be your comments on how it would be better for all parties that we stayed in ?
Ignore me and let your answer be as though you were talking directly to him. You have been waiting for this opportunity for several months now and i for one will sit back and read the words of one who thinks he is clever and knows it all, against the words who has done it and lived it !
Advantage Pinnacle :lol:
Over to you manc :mrgreen:


Did you read my post above? Are all Brexiteers ignoring my posts tonight?

:?

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Manchester Saddler
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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:22 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:I skim read it - and I (kind of) applaud Pinnacle for actually posting it.

I will read it properly tomorrow (I've had a beer or two so am less able to digest the contents fully).

My initial thoughts:

(1) Centralised power - "The EU, by design, centralises power in Brussels and makes laws uniform. " - not true. The UK make their own laws. This is a common flaw in the argument of Brexiteers. What the EU do is try to standardise economic policy - for example "the shape of bananas" - the argument that most Brexiteers use to indicate the madness of the EU. Don't forget - our elected MEPs have a say in this - so if you voted for Nigel Farage -presumably he voted against it!

(2) Fringe Nations Perform Better - I've worked in Switzerland and they pride themselves about staying "neutral in World War 2" - but what I do know is that nowadays they allow freedom of movement of EU citizens. I can come and go as I please. And I have a very good mate who has lived there since the late 1980's! If we were to go with the no deal "Hard Brexit" then we wouldn't enjoy the benefits that the Swiss or the Norwegians enjoy. People like Farage would not want us to be like the Swiss or the Norwegians.

(3) Regulations should be local - well yes - they should! BUT surely as part of the EU and with the power of veto we could and should vote against regulations that we don't like. Sadly governments (both sides) have clearly thought that the regulations fit in the past. We voted for the geovernments ergo we voted for those regulations - oh - and the MEPs too!

(4) The economic disaster that is Southern Europe - where we all go for our holidays! Yes - they were kind of bailed out but who by? Not us, that's for sure. Whether that's a a good thing or bad thing, I'm not sure. But, closer to home, what about the economic disaster that is the North of England compared to the prosperous south? Brexiteers constantly whine about the south being the Remainer stronghold (not true). Shoud we have a referendum to break Northern England away from London?

(5) Immigration Policy is becoming more important - Really immigration is the main issue as far as I can tell talking to Brexiteers, In the original thread I suggested that Brexiteers are a little bit xenophobicm because in their perception EU nationals were "stealing our jobs". This is clearly a tribal thing and panders to the racist elements of the United Kingdom. But is this really true? Are we xenophobic? I think a lot of Brexiteers are (NOT ALL I hasten to add!!!). I know my own Mother-in-law is a total racist and it was no surprise to me where her vote went. Let me tell you where I am coming from. I love to travel and have been to almost 30 countries - and fully intend to increase that amount! The freedom of movement thing works both ways and, to me at least, exposes the blinkered viewpoint of some Brexiteers. I want to embrace Europe and actually go and live there. Yet I have seen ex-pats who regard themselves as "not foreigners" in Spain yet voted for Brexit because they thought that "foreigners" should not live in England. It is beyond belief! Yes - we will be able to go back to the EU but fundamentally ALL OF US have lost our rights as EU citizens! That is in my opinion one of the saddest tings about Brexit. We have cut off our noses to spite our faces.

(6) Trade deals are a red herring - Really? We already have a trade deal with China and many other non-EU countries. Trade with China has increased while we are in the EU and (bizarrely) as an arrangement it is far easier for Chinese people to come to the UK than it was. How's THAT for freedom of movement? I know because I the last time I went to China was 18 months ago yet I am still eligible to go there until May - a two year visa! I've been to China a lot and this is the longest visa I have ever had. Also, the "no deal" scenario means that we will face tariffs! Big tariffs! The EU is the BIGGEST MARKET in the world.

And we are pulling out like total dickheads!!!

(7) "Further integration with the EU means economic decline" - So why is EU growth strong and rising and UK growth weak and declining (since we voted Brexit)?

(8) Democratic accountability matters - We voted for MEPs. The EU commission is like the civil service. I don't recall having a say in who each civil servant was. And MOST IMPORTANTLY - who the fork voted for ANY MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS?????

(9) Land ownership and the Common Agricultural Policy - Did anyone read Michael Gove's recent suggestion about farming subsidies????????

(10) The Common Fisheries Policy - We are rather narrow-minded when it comes to fishing. As part of the EU we have access to the entire EU coast. After Brexit we have to make do with our own seas. Go figure!!!!

I really appreaciate this, Pinnacle but I guess ultimately your goal was to try and shut me up!

You failed and when I have digested it properly tomorrow and replied in a more coherent way, you may regret it. Ultimately this is a view from one Brexiteer who (surprise surprise) hasn't changed my mind.

Some food for thought.

Here are 10 reasons why we should stay!

(1) Immigration is good! What would (will) the NHS be without EU doctors and nurses?

(2) Jobs - The EU offers a huge opportunity for jobs. People can move to and work anywhere in the EU. That will be far more difficult after Brexit.

(3) Trade - We have never had it so good. Goods are cheap and we are part of a wonderful market. When we leave we will no longer be part of that market. Life will be far more expensive and the choice of goods will be limited for people on limited budgets.

(4) Economy - The EU is growing at a fantastic rate. We are growing at a much worse rate and after Brexit we will be plummet. Most economists believe this.

(5) Freedom of movement - wave bye bye to the opportunities to work in and live in the EU. Not so bad for old gits like you and I, Pinnacle - but think of your kids!!

(6) Workers Rights - The Working Time Directive is a Godsend. Now this gives corporations the same power to sack people for nothing - like they do in America! 51st state anyone?

(7) Security - We work closely with the EU to avert terrorist attacks! We will lose a major portion of this intelligence!

(8) European holidays - How difficult will it be for a Brit to open a bar in Spain after we leave the EU? How much more expensive will your trips to Benidorm be, Pinnacle? Still - you can always shiver on the beach in Blackpool!

(9) The Whole World - the whole world thinks we are crazy for voting Brexit. Even crazier than the US electing Trump as their President. Speaks volumes!

(10) EU Funding - Many aspects of British life depend on EU funding! We will lose all of that! It will hit us harder than you think!

Okay - a mega post - but at least I hhave answered all of the poits of the "expert".

Pity, Pinnacle, that you can;'t think of anything yourself!

I may return tomorrow when I can digest this properly!

But in the meantime - if you want to reply to my pro-EU points (without relying on somebody else to think for you) feel free!

:D


I#m quoting myself for those Brexiteers who don't read my posts!

:D :wink:

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:41 am

Lazy PINNACLE wrote:Advantage Pinnacle


:lol: :lol: :lol:

You've simply regurgitated a quite massive block of text without even reading it yourself because you're 'in that mood'. You can't be bothered to summarise it for consumption and then moan because others haven't addressed the content with a fine toothcomb. Didn't it occur to you to highlight the main points and link to the piece?

Manchester then spends the considerable time to formulate answers which you can't be bothered to read either.

I suggested that you've been lazy on this occasion, based specifically on what you have done.
I will get around to reading it - when I've got a spare 2 hours. :roll:

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:28 am

SaigonSaddler wrote:
PINNACLE wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:
PINNACLE wrote:Copied and pasted but perfectly suits my mood !
There's an answer for you so please just shut the f*** up and get over it :roll:


Too long / not read.

Copy and paste from a lazy poster. Couldn't even be bothered to summarise into vaguely digestible format.


You have got as long as it takes to read it, no one is hurrying you !
There are some very good arguments against your so called promised land.
I made it quite clear that i had lifted it from another source so please do not call me a lazy poster or are we back to childish insults when someone dares to answer you back. Typical remark i would have expected from one of the 3 UTS bullies that have killed this once very enjoyable website.


LOL

Harking back to the halcyon days of the various UTS cliques? :wink:

To be fair, he's calmed down since being serially banned... :wink:

Still posts rubbish though. :mrgreen:

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:47 am

Exile wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:
PINNACLE wrote:
SaigonSaddler wrote:
PINNACLE wrote:Copied and pasted but perfectly suits my mood !
There's an answer for you so please just shut the f*** up and get over it :roll:


Too long / not read.

Copy and paste from a lazy poster. Couldn't even be bothered to summarise into vaguely digestible format.


You have got as long as it takes to read it, no one is hurrying you !
There are some very good arguments against your so called promised land.
I made it quite clear that i had lifted it from another source so please do not call me a lazy poster or are we back to childish insults when someone dares to answer you back. Typical remark i would have expected from one of the 3 UTS bullies that have killed this once very enjoyable website.


LOL

Harking back to the halcyon days of the various UTS cliques? :wink:

To be fair, he's calmed down since being serially banned... :wink:

Still posts rubbish though. :mrgreen:


Well apparently the three of us are "the 3 UTS bullies that have killed this once enjoyable site".

I've only ever been called a bully by Pinnacle - nobody else ever! Presumably his definition of a "bully" is somebody who openly disagrees with him.

I've been trying not to laugh at him to be honest but it's tough when he posts rubbish!

Still, I'm willing to give him the chance to be a little more civil and to actually join in - just as long as he doesn't make it personal.

:D

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:59 am

Since his appalling 'bomb Mecca' post and his presumably self-imposed exile, I'm quite pleased to see him back. His occasional abusive accusations are more comical than anything else, but he adds a certain something into the mix.

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:35 pm

Gunna say what we’re all thinking. Feel free to ban me

Pinnacle’s a Scunthorpe.

UTS

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:36 pm

scott_powell wrote:Gunna say what we’re all thinking. Feel free to ban me

Pinnacle’s a Scunthorpe.

UTS


:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Brexit Breakfast

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:09 pm

Manchester Saddler wrote:I skim read it - and I (kind of) applaud Pinnacle for actually posting it.

I will read it properly tomorrow (I've had a beer or two so am less able to digest the contents fully).

My initial thoughts:

(1) Centralised power - "The EU, by design, centralises power in Brussels and makes laws uniform. " - not true. The UK make their own laws. This is a common flaw in the argument of Brexiteers. What the EU do is try to standardise economic policy - for example "the shape of bananas" - the argument that most Brexiteers use to indicate the madness of the EU. Don't forget - our elected MEPs have a say in this - so if you voted for Nigel Farage -presumably he voted against it!

(2) Fringe Nations Perform Better - I've worked in Switzerland and they pride themselves about staying "neutral in World War 2" - but what I do know is that nowadays they allow freedom of movement of EU citizens. I can come and go as I please. And I have a very good mate who has lived there since the late 1980's! If we were to go with the no deal "Hard Brexit" then we wouldn't enjoy the benefits that the Swiss or the Norwegians enjoy. People like Farage would not want us to be like the Swiss or the Norwegians.

(3) Regulations should be local - well yes - they should! BUT surely as part of the EU and with the power of veto we could and should vote against regulations that we don't like. Sadly governments (both sides) have clearly thought that the regulations fit in the past. We voted for the geovernments ergo we voted for those regulations - oh - and the MEPs too!

(4) The economic disaster that is Southern Europe - where we all go for our holidays! Yes - they were kind of bailed out but who by? Not us, that's for sure. Whether that's a a good thing or bad thing, I'm not sure. But, closer to home, what about the economic disaster that is the North of England compared to the prosperous south? Brexiteers constantly whine about the south being the Remainer stronghold (not true). Shoud we have a referendum to break Northern England away from London?

(5) Immigration Policy is becoming more important - Really immigration is the main issue as far as I can tell talking to Brexiteers, In the original thread I suggested that Brexiteers are a little bit xenophobicm because in their perception EU nationals were "stealing our jobs". This is clearly a tribal thing and panders to the racist elements of the United Kingdom. But is this really true? Are we xenophobic? I think a lot of Brexiteers are (NOT ALL I hasten to add!!!). I know my own Mother-in-law is a total racist and it was no surprise to me where her vote went. Let me tell you where I am coming from. I love to travel and have been to almost 30 countries - and fully intend to increase that amount! The freedom of movement thing works both ways and, to me at least, exposes the blinkered viewpoint of some Brexiteers. I want to embrace Europe and actually go and live there. Yet I have seen ex-pats who regard themselves as "not foreigners" in Spain yet voted for Brexit because they thought that "foreigners" should not live in England. It is beyond belief! Yes - we will be able to go back to the EU but fundamentally ALL OF US have lost our rights as EU citizens! That is in my opinion one of the saddest tings about Brexit. We have cut off our noses to spite our faces.

(6) Trade deals are a red herring - Really? We already have a trade deal with China and many other non-EU countries. Trade with China has increased while we are in the EU and (bizarrely) as an arrangement it is far easier for Chinese people to come to the UK than it was. How's THAT for freedom of movement? I know because I the last time I went to China was 18 months ago yet I am still eligible to go there until May - a two year visa! I've been to China a lot and this is the longest visa I have ever had. Also, the "no deal" scenario means that we will face tariffs! Big tariffs! The EU is the BIGGEST MARKET in the world.

And we are pulling out like total dickheads!!!

(7) "Further integration with the EU means economic decline" - So why is EU growth strong and rising and UK growth weak and declining (since we voted Brexit)?

(8) Democratic accountability matters - We voted for MEPs. The EU commission is like the civil service. I don't recall having a say in who each civil servant was. And MOST IMPORTANTLY - who the fork voted for ANY MEMBER OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS?????

(9) Land ownership and the Common Agricultural Policy - Did anyone read Michael Gove's recent suggestion about farming subsidies????????

(10) The Common Fisheries Policy - We are rather narrow-minded when it comes to fishing. As part of the EU we have access to the entire EU coast. After Brexit we have to make do with our own seas. Go figure!!!!

I really appreaciate this, Pinnacle but I guess ultimately your goal was to try and shut me up!

You failed and when I have digested it properly tomorrow and replied in a more coherent way, you may regret it. Ultimately this is a view from one Brexiteer who (surprise surprise) hasn't changed my mind.

Some food for thought.

Here are 10 reasons why we should stay!

(1) Immigration is good! What would (will) the NHS be without EU doctors and nurses?

(2) Jobs - The EU offers a huge opportunity for jobs. People can move to and work anywhere in the EU. That will be far more difficult after Brexit.

(3) Trade - We have never had it so good. Goods are cheap and we are part of a wonderful market. When we leave we will no longer be part of that market. Life will be far more expensive and the choice of goods will be limited for people on limited budgets.

(4) Economy - The EU is growing at a fantastic rate. We are growing at a much worse rate and after Brexit we will be plummet. Most economists believe this.

(5) Freedom of movement - wave bye bye to the opportunities to work in and live in the EU. Not so bad for old gits like you and I, Pinnacle - but think of your kids!!

(6) Workers Rights - The Working Time Directive is a Godsend. Now this gives corporations the same power to sack people for nothing - like they do in America! 51st state anyone?

(7) Security - We work closely with the EU to avert terrorist attacks! We will lose a major portion of this intelligence!

(8) European holidays - How difficult will it be for a Brit to open a bar in Spain after we leave the EU? How much more expensive will your trips to Benidorm be, Pinnacle? Still - you can always shiver on the beach in Blackpool!

(9) The Whole World - the whole world thinks we are crazy for voting Brexit. Even crazier than the US electing Trump as their President. Speaks volumes!

(10) EU Funding - Many aspects of British life depend on EU funding! We will lose all of that! It will hit us harder than you think!

Okay - a mega post - but at least I hhave answered all of the poits of the "expert".

Pity, Pinnacle, that you can;'t think of anything yourself!

I may return tomorrow when I can digest this properly!

But in the meantime - if you want to reply to my pro-EU points (without relying on somebody else to think for you) feel free!

:D




Manchester your whole approach to this thread is not logical

The decision went the way of the leavers, the majority. Therefore the burden of pursuasion falls upon you, the MINORITY
It is up to the remainers to convince the leavers to change their mind not , as you weirdly suggest , the other way round. Bless you.

I have to say the pitiful attempt to change our minds as stated above did make me laugh though

If the EU is going to be so prosperous then hedge and invest in it what you lose here you will make there - bet you don't.

I particularly like number 8 being European holidays, if I recall correctly Spain was not worried about the prospect of a lack of British tourists who in your words will no longer travel due to the costs. Saigon agreed with you and said the beaches of Benidorm, Ibiza and Marbs will now be packed solid with Chinese. I note that Spain have asked for urgent talks to negotiate trade deals with us which is as we expected given they are on their knees.


Bit concerned about number 9 and to be honest I will struggle to sleep tonight worrying what the good folk of Papua New Guinea think of us


:D

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