UpTheSaddlers Forum

Bolton Wanderers (A) F A Cup 3rd round, Jan 5th, 3pm


It will never be the same set of games but ok.

We’ve scored 21 cup goals this season. We’d scored 10 under Whitney at this point. But that doesn’t prove my point any more than judging on league games proves the opposite.

Because I’m talking about subjectively watching the team.


Really enjoyed the day up until that second half - our fans were class throughout and deserve better than that ■■■■ in the second half

The team had the opportunity to win a lot of people over but yet again showed no bottle and proved a lot of us right unfortunately


I think how you feel about the current situation is far more insightful than non-comparative stats - this FA Cup exit doesn’t feel anywhere near as bad as last years for example…


Some people would deny anything it seems. Interesting and damning statistics. Keates is no more the right appointment than Whitney, possibly less so, but the hatred and venom towards the latter is clouding that for some. What we needed after the Smith/O’Driscoll/Whitney season was an exciting appointment who would build on Smith’s philosophy for the club. What we needed when Whitney left was the same. We didn’t get it. Instead we got a manager under whom we’ve gone backwards defensively and, despite the fact that it looks more exciting at times, we’re scoring less goals. Facts don’t lie.


They aren’t facts. They’re samples.


Haha! MATLAB actually :joy:


My Christmas present had a Matalan tab on it too.


First 26 games he showed the facts. And that includes the magnificent start to this season. Last 15 games, 13 points. Last 10 games, 7 points. Those are facts, and damning ones. We are in as poor a run of form and as precarious a position as we’ve been for years. I hope he turns it around but I’m not convinced he can.


We haven’t though. Please can you let Whitney go? Jesus Christ. You’ve brought him up in numerous threads now.


Yes, because he’s the comparison we have. It was generally agreed he was awful and our form wasn’t good enough. So it’s absolutely valid to compare keates and say his form is worse. If you like, we can compare against Smith but that doesn’t seem fair.


Why not? Why don’t you compare against Smith and his one win in 24 games or whatever it was?

It’s just selective.

They’re aren’t real facts, because you are making inferences based on data. That data is a generative model of what you’re trying to measure.

As such, unless it’s fully defined and the same conditions - you cannot compare. It’s meaningless.


What would be the point of comparing against Smith? I mean he performed well above expectations. If you are expecting that as the norm then you are going to be pretty disappointed.

I’d much rather compare Keates to what people expect of him THIS season. Not what Whitney did or didn’t do or any other manager because it’s completely pointless. Dean Keates is the only man who will ever manager Walsall with this set of circumstances and with this current squad. He’s still above where I expected him to be and on that basis I think he’s doing ok. I can’t deny it’s been relegation form though (just like we were in play off form at the start of the season) and that needs to be turned around pretty sharpish.


First 26 games in successive seasons - same period, not selective data.

Anyway, I’ll leave you all to it now. Here’s how I see it;

Whitney was the wrong appointment

Whitney wasn’t as bad as some make out and knew (from his role as performance coach) how to get the best out of some players

We should have got to the end of last season then looked properly for a new manager. We wouldn’t have gone down

Keates was the wrong appointment

He’s signed some interesting players but also wasted loan signings and signed his mate who doesn’t seem up to it

Keates is failing to get the best out of the players

This is the same defence as last year, when they let in far fewer goals. That clearly says that it’s not the individuals, it’s down to team tactics and set up and/or the management team not being able to get players playing at the top of their game

I hope he turns it around, and quick, because otherwise I think we’re heading for clear relegation.

Feel free to show me this post after 46 games and gloat. No-one will be happier than me if you can do that.

Bye now…


The selective bit being to omit cup games mate.

Completely subjective.

As for the rest of that rambling I’ve got one simple question. Where did you expect us to be at the start of the season? Everybody who has a pop at Keates doesn’t seem to be able to answer that one.


A new found love for El Nombre here.


Sorry to disappoint but this is an old one. I’ve always found his Whitney rambling fascinating to be honest. He’s been saying this since the Keates appointment pretty much.

Rare you will find somebody who will give one manager so much time but is barely willing to give another 6-9 months.




The thing with Dean (if I’m honest) Keates,is, he’s always got his default postion of “I can’t promise anything,but”. Whereas Whitney was always promising success tomorrow,always tomorrow.So the best policy according to that, is don’t promise the fans anything and they won’t expect too much


Not promising something you don’t know if you can deliver seems pretty common sense to me. Whitney talked big and delivered very little. I defended him an awful lot during his time but it was like defending somebody who constantly had a pistol aimed at his own foot.


Yeah it’s not really the point I’m making. I agree we look threatening at times and that’s where the system worked, or did until teams realised they could stop us by not allowing Ferrier onto his right foot and doubling up on Zeli. The point is, when the ball is cleared out from out box, our forward line should be stretching their defence as an outlet ball. That way we can bring the whole team up the pitch, it’s not even the purpose of attacking, we can go straight back to the back 4 again and play it across the back 4, it’s more for game management to release the pressure and we’re not doing that. Keates eludes to this quite often. At these points in the game Cook remains static and Ferrier looking to run in straight lines and that’s not helpful. The ball is being played into the feet of the front 2, they struggle to hold it up, they struggle with the pace which the ball has to move in order to make sure the defender doesn’t nip around the front and steal the ball and the movement isn’t good. Dobson is off the boil but he’s getting caught on the ball because there’s no where to go and the forward line is struggling to pass a 5 yard ball (see charltons first goal). It’s not helping us build any momentum to change to direction of the game.

Also this is nothing to do with Whitney, I’m talking about Keates team and Keates system