They won 9 games at the start of the season, which evidently means in some peoples eyes they should be considered Champions League players
How anyone can not understand the meaning of âfound outâ when a team lacks strength is depth and quality, has obviously not seen much modern day football!
Iâm still waiting for someone to name to me a single (thatâs ONE) proven, quality League One performer in our âPlay Offâ squad. All we can say, as usual, is he âmightâ make it, he âmightâ have what it takes or he âhadâ what it takes, he âwasâ a quality player in his day - because as usual we have zero quality - just potential, kids, and journeymen with more injuries than appearances.
The proven quality league one players are the players who proved they were good enough to do well in this division (which is not, by the way, the Championsâ League) during the first 16 matches of this season. That was far too long a run to be just a fluke. If the squad were not good enough to compete at this level it could not have done as well as it did during that spell.
The blame for the subsequent failure lies totally with the manager who panicked after a defeat to an excellent Luton side on 20th October, changed the system that worked, blamed the previous manager for giving him the basis of the squad that had done so well for him up to then, told the players they were not good enough, and then had a terrible transfer window.
Agree 100% Bernie, and add Keates constantly banging on about negatives week in week out⌠reaching 52 points, players being ânaiveâ, the budget, the contract situation etc etc. Shocking, cringeworthy management, that was actually indicative of Keates own lack of self-belief and confidence that he could do the job. He managed, by about the end of October to instill that into the team! Didnât deal with issues like Ferrierâs attitude, the Morris situation, and brought in Martin. Two seasonâs running we should have changed the manager in January and brought in someone with experience during the opportunity for change and improvement that is a transfer window.
Its not how you perform over 16 games, its how you perform over a season. How many other clubs of our size start well then end up in the mire because they are simply found out by the opposition, who then nullify the threat and play to their own, greater strengths? Okay, so by your reckoning they played well for the first 16 games - what about those that were here last season and nearly got us relegated over 46 games? Are they quality, proven league one performers capable of getting in the Play Offs? Because over 46 games last season and 46 games this season they have struggled in league one, meaning your â16 gamesâ is looking like a weak argument to me.
When the squad was found out by the opposition they did not have the quality, strength in depth, character or leadership to overcome it. But then, they are poor or average League One players at very best - thatâs judging them over 2 seasons of evidence, not on a 16 week flash in the pan.
But the argument is that 16 games isnât a âflash in the panâ, its actually around 1/3 rd of a season. You canât fluke that with no ability. A team with no ability might win the odd game, but it isnât going to put a run together at any point, this team did - the best 3rd tier start to a league campaign in the history of the club in fact. Had we girded our loins, took defeats and tried to learn from them and accepted that defeat was part of a learning process, then we might have built something half-reasonable this season, and improved moderately on last season. Players are allowed to improve, but they need to be organised, motivated and coached. How many of our players are just looking worse ever week? Thatâs not ability its form, one canât be lost but the other can, and the lack of management in the areas I just mentioned must surely be at the root of that.
In terms of 46 games it is a flash in the pan, really. I take your point, but I think we were found out, as stated. Nothing to do with our players ability, just the greater resources and ability of opposing teams and managers to identify and snuff out our threats after the first few games.
Its happens regularly - a team with little resource will fall away over a season after an amazing start. One thing I will bank my house on however, is this squad would never in a million attempts be anywhere near the play offs. I would tend to agree with PT - its not all Keates, its not all players - itâs just a total mess everywhere you look - and we all know that is from the very top downwards. Its a pure miracle this hasnât happened numerous times previously when Keates was nowhere near the club - but we all know who was at the club, donât we?
I honestly believe that being rewarded for showing patience with Smith clouded judgement with Whitney and Keates. Inertia whilst closing their eyes and hoping it would come good was never going to work with Whitney or Keates as the rot was well and truly set in with both a few months before they were actually sacked.
Hurts to say this but Keates is vying with Sibley and Barnwell as the worst manager in my time watching us. A truly calamitous tenure that I think will echo for three or four years as the playing side needs a complete overhaul.
Us lot need to be patient with the new manager. It is a hell of a job to take on. The next few years is the time for us to give the manager and the team (especially if we go with kids) unconditional support whilst we step up the campaign for change âupstairsâ.
Which is exactly why at Walsall (or any club of our size), you need a manager that can organise, motivate, and instill and maintain a style of play where players know what they are doing and what standards are expected. In Ray Graydonâs first promotion season, the ultimate blueprint for a club punching above its weight and achieving success we finished second despite losing 10 league games, a pretty high number for any team finishing second in a league. But after each defeat we never succumbed to an abandonment of our principles, we simply re-grouped and re-doubled our efforts the next game. You would have thought Keates, having been a player in that team would have understood that principle, and its improtance more than anyone. But he simply didnât, and thatâs why we have unravelled so horribly since October.
Maybe he did understand. But to me had no self belief in his own decisions and I think you have to have that so you get the respect of your players. Which Graydon obviously had.
I havenât posted on this site for God knows how long - a decade? But itâs good to see Geordie Saddler and Bernie still talking sharp-eyed common sense. Iâve seen Walsall four times this season - a win, a draw, two defeats - and in none of the games were they dreadful. Iâve seen way worse and it didnât begin to compare to a Sibley/Barnwell/Merson shambles. I thought Keates would do well, and he did at first - a shame he couldnât maintain it. A spell in League 2 may be just what they need to appoint a decent manager, clear their heads and come back stronger. But staying up is still do-able.
Time for WSFC to send another strongly worded letter perhaps?
My god, the Board will be trembling with fear!
No, the players donât care a jot, 90% will be gone in the summer clearout anyway. Anyone could see at Accrington the âfightâ was non existent, not there against Southend, but from what we heard and read it was a similar scenario.
MOC has his work cut out to find a combination of players ready to remember that to win games you have to get out of your own half occasionally and try to hit that round bit of leather towards the opposition goal net. Itâs so frustrating watching our lot currently, there is just nothing there.
Welcome back Ian. A mainstay of this board when I first joined (1999). If I remember correctly you used to secrete tenuous Walsall links on Channel Four teletext back then?
I think Keates has to be comparable to those other three as he shares the ignominy of relegating us to the fourth division. I left Merson out because he somehow oversaw our record number of consecutive league wins but more importantly he left some fine raw materials for his more able successor to pick up and work with. Iâm afraid Keates has left his successor with virtually nowt despite spending actual transfer fees (something nearly unheard of for the last 15 years) on four players.
FWIW I think the squad in 16/17 was comfortably better and if you want to measure that was a down the line mid table league 1 squad.
You had a keeper then who now starts every week in the premier league (and could easily be picked up by another club if Cardiff go down).
That season James OâConnor was still better than anyone whoâs played at CB this year, Eoghan OâConnell was showing decent potential aswell (is he still at Bury), Jason McCarthy who we will see tomorow was much better at the attacking RB lark than Devlin and 16/17 Laird version was obviously better than the one who turned up in January. And Leahy.
In midfield you still had Chambers in decent shape and Edwards and Osbourne were also better than they are now.
Upfront is probably similar to now given Moussa and Jackson were both passed it. Moussa mightâve scored more than Ismail has thoughâŚ
Ultimately all trumpted by a player of Oztumerâs genius floating just off the main striker. How a player of his ability has been hugely missed this year, no exaggeration to say he could score a goal out of nothing.
When you look back 16/17 shouldâve been much closer to top 6 but it was following the near miss the previous year and Whitneyâs management style obviously had many limitations.
Still would be very surprised if anyone on here argued the squad now was better than two seasons ago.
Donât forget an emerging striker who wasnât good enough for this division and will never get another club in this division, all that at the age of 19-20.
Early part of the season I thought DK had pulled off a blinder effectively swopping Baka for Ferrier.
Baka done alright for Coventry but itâs still only 7 league goals for the season which is just above what he was averaging here.
Heâs better as a provider as Hiwula next to him has 11 league goals for the season. Now thereâs a striker the club really shouldâve pushed financially to get after Bradshaw left.
Surely couldâve got him for what they were paying Jackson, Makris and Moussa. Then Baka and Hiwula couldâve had their developing partnership in Walsall colours.
He may have only scored 7 but Robins and Vivaesh are smart enough to know that his hold up play and bringing others into the game were more important than his goal ratio. We went the other way and look at the difference between us and Coventry this season.
Iâll have to disagree with you on that one. Big, fast, strong, will be a good player in this league for years and weâve needed him because bar Gordon the rest were conference for a reason.
